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APPENDIX B. - INTERVIEW E
The following interviews are included in this appendix for the purpose of offering additional information that may not have been included in Chapter V. The responses are not edited in any way and are verbatim.
Canal Trail Questionnaire
· The purpose of this open-ended discussion is to obtain as naturalistic a response as possible. The goal is to gauge general sentiments and put a finger on the pulse of the major concerns and issues revolving around the development of recreational canal trails.
· Based on research to date a few of the biggest concerns and issues include:
U. Liability of canal companies and landowners.
V. Increased O+M costs.
W. Law enforcement protection for company, landowner and trail user.
X. Private property owner rights.
Y. Canal company operator’s rights.
Date of interview: Tuesday, December 1st 1998, 9:30 A.M.
Name: Peter Kung
Title/ Titles: President of Crockett Avenue Distribution System
Secretary Treasure of Logan River Water Users Association (LRWUA)
On board of directors for Logan N.W. Field Canal
Address and Telephone #:
346 N. 400 W.
Logan, UT 84321
Administers to what canals?
All seventeen canals in the Logan River Water Users Association
Ten of which are members of Crocket Avenue and my canal, Logan N.W. Field Irrigation Company.
Which of these are being considered for trail development by others? (Questions specific to these canals are italicized)
Logan city has been pushing it. Right now they are just talking about connecting the parks going from Cache County Fair Grounds to Central Park. The Logan, Hyde Park and Smithfield Canal, people have proposed a bike trail along that. That is not my group other than they are LRWU’s. And then the Logan Northern Canal has been proposed, but that is not under my jurisdiction.
Endpoints (cities, towns, river diverted from or any other landmarks)
Logan River Bear River.
The total length
About 5 miles.
Capacities and depths
It varies as you go through. Its just like a tree. It starts with a big branch and then it gets smaller and smaller. Normally it runs at about 200 cfs.
Width of the canal R.O.W. and the canal itself
In the section its about 15 ft. across and about 2 ft. deep. And we have a rod and a quarter which comes out to 20.6 ft. that was given to us since pioneer days. It was given by the city for the right to dispose of their storm drain water and we are in the process of trying to renegotiate with the city because its not only the quantity of the water it’s the quality we are worried about because we are starting to get run off that has garbage in it, oil in it, what if a pesticide truck breaks open at say Wal-Mart parking lot, its going to come right in our ditch. And we are responsible when it kills farm crops. So, we are trying to tie liability to point sources.
In what year did canal construction begin?
In what year did the canal open?
1861. And we didn’t incorporate until 1905.
We get 38% of the water that comes off of Logan river. It was set up as a gravity feed. Corneal Ricks the surveyor that Brigham enlisted in 1860 laid out the system. So we have water rights that are very strong and hard from 1860. Not only do we have irrigation rights we also have industrial rights because of the old mills ran on water power. Non-consumptive rights. It dumps back into the Bear River.
When I talk to you here today its my own personal opinion.
1- Do you know if any canals are currently being used for recreation? If so, what are the existing uses you know of?
· Yes they are all used. All seventeen. Swimming, fishing, tubing…you name it. Every one overlooks that it is a swamp cooler. These canals act like one. So, people sit and dangle their feet in the water or they seek the benefit of opening the window at night and getting the cool breeze.
2- Do you allow public use/ access? If not, what signing and notice efforts do you have in place to warn recreation users not to use the canal banks?
· We do. We don’t encourage it. Where ever we think its dangerous we have a sign that says: be careful, danger. And that is to cover us. The biggest fear we have is people messing with the water works. So, we put signs up saying: messing with the works or turning it on or off unauthorized is against the law and we quote the law and those are on all the head gates through town.
3- How aggressively are these efforts enforced?
· During the irrigation seasonal, fearly well because we have a water master that goes through and will talk to children about being careful, not being on the spillway, not pulling diversion boards. The other thing we do is we lock things in place. We lock canals open or lock them closed just to keep out tampering. Ive gone to Logan city a couple times to have things enforced when people were dumping chemicals, pesticides, printer cartridges. Caught them doing and brought the police in to read them the law. So we are into enforcement. Most people try to get along. If you listen to us and pay attention to the signs and listen to verbal instructions, fine. If you start fighting back and say we can do whatever we want then we will bust them.
4- Do you have any concerns regarding these existing uses?
· No, if they are in reason. If they don’t tamper with or erode the banks or throw garbage in, no. I spent many an hour myself hanging around recreating.
5- To the best of your knowledge, have there ever been any liability or injury claims lodged against your canal company or other entities or individuals associated with the canal? If so, what claims?
· We have never had a liability case brought against any of these canals because people who grew up here know that it’s a danger. Most of these canals don’t even have liability or injury policy. They think its cost prohibited so they essentially wait till it happens and then just pay up rather than pay so much a year. There is that law that says that unless we do something willfully negligent or draw people in then we can’t be held responsible. But that is changing we have been talking about buying some thinking that buying insurance is a lot cheaper than finding out that we don’t have enough money to cover a big claim because big claims are in the millions now.
6- What existing risk management do you have in place?
· My canal company the Logan N.W. Field Company specifically bought insurance in the last two years. We have signage in other places that say danger canal, stay away or open water…that kind of thing. We have fenced it off. And also during the spring during high run off we have taken snow fence material and put it along where it runs through parks to keep children from inadvertently falling in because it is cold and deep. That is just a courtesy. Ive seen kids there and I know how easily they can fall in. I almost lost my dog in the canal.
7- How do you feel about piping or covering canals as a solution to liability or to increase efficiency of water conveyance? Have such discussions taken place concerning the canals your company administers too?
· Yes we have. The problems there is that it has just been identified the water resource people in the state, the recharge value of having canals not lined. So they say a substantial proportion of water leaks through the bottom of our canal and recharges the aquifer in the center of the valley. The other problem with piping is access, we would have to put in new head gates, new arrangements for cleaning it out. Its cost prohibitive. But we have talked about it in the last few years to maybe separate our irrigation water from the storm drain water, but right now its cost prohibitive so we are not going to do it. It will be down the line in certain sections by putting up retaining walls but leaving the top open. Less than one percent of our canal is lined. The other thing is we are worried about loosing the tree cover. At first they thought the trees were essentially suckers taking on water, now they realize that the evapotranspiration probably lowers the temperature in town by so many degrees and provides refuge for wildlife. So we don’t want to loose the associated riparian benefits.
8- Are you aware of a cities or counties ability to shield canal companies from liability by way of indemnification or inclusion under their respective insurance?
Typical Maintenance agreement would state that: The city or agency “ holds harmless company from any and all liability arising out of the construction, maintenance and operation of such landscaping, walkways and parking facilities.”
Colorado: 1. Audubon section of the Colorado River Trail which parallels the Redlands Canal. (Mesa Co. indemnified)
10. Highline Canal (each respective city)
11. Westminster and Farmers Highline Canal. (Westminster)
· No but I wish they would. They never have offered us that but we always thought that if we bought insurance together as a group it would be cheaper but again even within my ten members of my Crockett Irrigation Company, we can’t get along. Everyone has their own board of directors their own agenda.
9- Are you aware of Utah’s Recreational Use Statutes? If so, how much do you know about it?
· No, but I wouldn’t mind getting a copy of them if there is one.
10- Do you feel the liability risks associated with recreational use of canals are higher or lower or equal to the risks associated with other recreational facilities?
· I would think the same. There is only part of the year that we use it so its during the summer. Kids are out of school so we get heavy visitation when the kids are there and the rest of the year we don’t see anything. When I do maintenance I can barely get anyone out there to help, boy scouts, etc.
11- Do you think some of your liability concerns can be addressed given proper design, construction and maintenance of a trail along any of your canals? If so, which concerns?
· Yes, I think so. I think a part of that would be an educational part to educate people to proper conduct and essentially tell people how to be socially nice. You know you don’t urinate in the peoples back yard and just stay on the trail. I think that in combination with the proper design and construction and also the proper attitude, and I see that around Boulder, they have signs that tell you what to do with your dog and be considerate. Some people don’t like that, they don’t like to see dogs running at them at all.
12- To the best of your knowledge, what is the existing adjacent land use along the canal/ canals by percentage?
60 % Residential
30 % Agricultural
10 % Business
13- What are the existing ownership standings along the length of the canal/ canals?
In terms of:
0 % Public
100 % Private
· On the upper canal the Logan, Hyde Park and Smithfield Canal its BLM and Forest Service ground on the back side of that. But most of its private. The city has one side at a park, it might be municipal but a very small percentage.
14- Does your company or WUA own land under any portion of the canal/canals?
· Yes, we own it all. The full length of the canal was deeded to us.
15- Does your company or WUA own easements for any portion of the canal/ canals?
· Because we have used a certain section for so long we have what is called a prescriptive easement, but that is generally just the canal bed itself where the water runs, and is more on the laterals. If someone comes in and tries to do something to these laterals that come off of our main stem, the ones we have by easement, we have a right to use it and they have a five year non-use. If it goes for five years without being used then we have to either file again to reuse it or we could be denied.
16- Does the respective city own land under any portion of the canal/ canals?
· Wherever the parks are and the County might own the County Fair Grounds where it goes through on either side. But it would be very small percentage wise.
17- Are you familiar with general ownership standings along the canal/ canals.
- How much of the canal corridor is owned in fee simple by adjacent landowners? (Own land and canal company has an easement.)
- Have adjacent landowners or the city adversely possessed any sections of the canal R.O.W.?
· See #13 and #21.
18- Please explain your relationship with the BOR regarding ownership of underlying land.
· No, not really. We have talked to them about methods of lining the canal with an impervious clay lining, best methods, best management kind of practices. But, we really don’t have any agreements with them.
19- Are there any existing encroachments such as fencing or vegetation? If so, how have you dealt with the problem?
· Tons. Generally what we do is we have had to force the city to go out there and have the board of adjustments make them come into compliance. In a few cases we have actually gone out and taken the fence down. We try to work with the property owner. We warn them once. And what we are doing now is getting Logan city to…whenever anybody applies for a fence permit or building permit if it has the word canal anywhere near it, contact us and we are willing to work with them. We actually pay for improvements along the canal, we will buy the cement. If they put in a retaining wall we will buy shrubs. We want them to understand that they have to come and ask us for permission first. About fifty percent is encroached upon right now. The town is growing so fast especially out near the airport and that is where we are having our problems. I was just out last night where someone built within ten feet of the canal bank, we cut a deal with them and said if they put in a retaining wall and don’t get any closer we will allow it and if not we will put a cease and disorder on it. I don’t want to get into law enforcement or zoning or code enforcement so we go to Logan city. They have been getting better over the last year or so about involving us in their process.
20- Does your company or WUA have the legal authority to provide (if you wish to) the right for recreation trail use for all parties or some parties? Please explain.
· No. its all privately owned.
21- Conversely, Would consent from your canal company be legally required if easements for recreational trail use on your canals were acquired from the underlying landowner by a recreational entity or agency?
· I would think yes. But that is something we asked them about and there is no legal opinion. We keep hearing that the attorney general is going to come up with a statement. We have been approached by property owners and canal company representatives asking who actually owns this and what rights do we have and more importantly who is liable. There is no answer the city doesn’t want to commit themselves. And there is only three water attorneys in the whole state and we don’t have the funds to pay them. As far as I know there is no answer yet. A precedent setting case is needed. Until someone pays for a legal opinion you don’t get one. So, I would say yes because by law they technically own the property to the canal bank and so its not really ours. Our easement is for conveying water and some cleaning. Not for selling or allowing someone else to trespass for other purposes. We have the right to trespass for maintenance and cleaning but I don’t think we can convey that to anyone without getting some kind of a legal opinion.
22- Are there different answers for different sections of the canal?
23- If easements for a recreation trail were acquired from the underlying landowners by a public entity such as the respective city would Bureau of Reclamation consent to this use be legally binding?
· N/A. See #18.
24- Do you foresee any obstacles in developing a canal as a recreational trail?
(ALLOW VOLUNTEERING OF ISSUES FIRST)
E. Liability Why?
- Attractive nuisance
- Liability should cover entire corridor not just path.
CC. Safety Why?
DD. Crime Why?
- Law enforcement: Time of response
- Changing emergency procedures/ protocol
- Protection of facilities and appurtenant structures. Such as flow measurement gauges and spillway structures.
EE. Operation and Maintenance Why?
- Increased O+M costs
- Canal company rights: it’s a work space, headgates get daily attention during irrigation season, need availability of frequent daily access to headgates, ditchriders use heavy equipment, need to access both sides of canal, inspection of canal daily.
- Vegetation management for visual inspection.
- People need to honor the ditchriders need to pass!
(Have headphones on, dogs running loose, dogs in canal, horses and get spooked, bicyclist not paying attention.)
- and M of dirt canal will not allow surfaced trails along side on canal bank.
FF. E. Funding Why?
- Lack of resources (funding) to cope with the increased costs that may or may not be associated with trail development.
GG. Lack of Management entity Why?
HH. Other Please explain:
- Public perception that the canal is public land.
- All uses should be subordinate to agricultural use.
- Private property owner’s rights: taking without compensation, multi-purpose easements.
· Yes. I would say liability comes to mind right away. That is the first thing someone asks, who’s responsible for maintenance, someone getting hurt, are we allowed to even let other people on that trail. Those are the biggest ones. And the other thing is the Not-In-My-Back-Yard issue. You will find a lot of people who think that it’s a great idea and are really, really supportive but when we tell them its going to be in their backyard they say sorry we didn’t mean that, not in my back yard and it amazes me because a lot of those people are educated. Especially on my section of the canal because they work up here at the college. They belong to environmental organizations which makes them think they are an environmental person, but when you ask them to do something in their own back yard about it they are not willing to do that. A lot of people say that we bought along the canal because of the privacy and the water and not the lack of trails. So they see it as a negative and I think that is where we have to educate. If you want to live in a community, and people are the community, I think you have to give something back to the community. And if you want to be a recluse and not want to have anything to do with anybody then buy 500 acres up on the bench and keep everybody out. That’s part of living in town. Getting the amenities of the town. But looking through your list here I can say that everything you got listed here is a concern.
25- If a trail were developed along one of your canals what implementation measures would you like to see?
- (Risk management, set backs from maintenance road, fencing, restrictions on time of use, etc.)
· All those. Signage and education. I think we have to educate the public that this isn’t a right, that it’s a privilege, to have respect for other people’s properties. Who is going to be picking up the garbage along there? And maybe it should be set up so that people don’t go through there at midnight and get rowdy or whatever. So, set some times of use. But again, I think that its something where everybody needs to be involved and it shouldn’t fall to one entity or the other to do it all. Maybe we could have a community patrol, sponsors along the canal that spend some time checking on things.
26- Have you ever been contacted by anyone concerning trail development on any of your canals? If so, who is it and where do negotiations stand?
· The city and adjacent property owners and actually the irrigators as well have all contacted me. We are in limbo right now, we are waiting for an opinion that is supposedly coming and we haven’t gotten that yet and Logan city has made the first step to quantify where they are because they aren’t even mapped correctly on city maps. How deep?, how wide?, what is the capacity? And then what we might do to improve by digging deeper or lining. Maybe by setting alternate routes. But that is all in the planning stages right now. They are trying to get their numbers together and we are trying to get our group together. I am starting to put out lists like this where people can contact other members and hopefully there will be some exchange of information. I am trying to get all the member companies to help me identify where there ditches are and mark it out on this map with all the headgates. Ive done it on mine and I am trying to get all the member companies to supply me with a list and that is something they have to do by law. A current list of contact lists of who the water masters are, who the users are, how many shares are involved and come back into compliance again. That’s where we have to be prepared because when other people start looking at our water we have to prove that we are using it beneficially and according to law. So, its all pending. We do have a meeting with the public works director that we will go out this year and inspect the whole canal and identify areas that need repair or maintenance because they pay for half of the maintenance costs right now on our for the privilege of dumping their storm water in. Logan city has always been bad about including us and adjacent property owners in the process.
27- Are you aware of any other trails built next to irrigation canals in Utah?
· I know along the Jordan River. I know in Vernal along the Ashley Creek system. They had some floods and big release of water that changed the bank and took some adjacent property. So now they are talking about a buffer zone I don’t know if it will be for recreational use, I think they are talking about that, but right now its just a green riparian buffer zone so that they are not in peoples yards right of way with the overflow of water. They did do some down by the Jordanelle dam outside of midway, but that was Bureau of Reclamation federal funds and federal project. It not a local effort…they involved the canal companies but it was a federal project.
28- What forms of recreational use permission are you aware of?
- Donation of easements, sale of recreational use easement, sales of fee title to the land under the canal easement?
· There has been some wetland mitigation done along one of our canals. Someone has developed the sight for a business and because they took out so many acres of wetland they had to supply twice the amount that they took out. And they have used there water rights to let it run into a field to sustain a marsh to make up for some marshes that they impacted.
29- Given that there is no easy way to keep the public off the canals, how do you feel about the idea that opening the canal for recreational use might actually help manage existing uses, as opposed to complete closure, which could be expensive, difficult to enforce and difficult to defend regarding public relations?
· If everybody is in charge I think we can do it. I think we can satisfy the property owners, we can still get our irrigation water. That’s a lot better than saying no because the minute you say no that draws my attention and makes me want to go there and the few sections where I have seen them closed off …just makes it forbidden fruit and makes people attracted to it. So, I think we need to work together on it and can. By increasing the awareness and increasing usage I think people will help manage it better. We may get a paved trail so it won’t be dirt. We may get better shrubs, better stability on the banks. More people watching so incase there is a problem, and I have seen that now where I have eyes and ears out where we can’t watch the whole canal all the time. Now that we have a contact list I have been contacted by people that say do you know that you have a leak at such and such a place and have actually gotten us to go there before it would have blown out because the big problem they have identified the small problem. So, I think it will work. It becomes your own back yard and you take care of it.
30- What is your position regarding controlling use through Cooperative Recreational Use Agreements with public entities in order to get help managing the recreational use without interfering with the water works?
· We have tried that just for maintenance because the way the law reads now is that if you alter an existing ditch by for example putting it under ground you are forever responsible for maintenance for that section including the grates. And as much as logan city agrees to that, I haven’t got it in writing. So it comes back to liability where I would like to have something in writing saying that that grate is their responsibility. So, the bottom line, if we can’t get along by word of mouth and by handshake we do have an agreement that says that is the bottom line, you are responsible. We have tried to get a list of contacts to the city as well and they have been real good about it. Just as I was telling you this guy reported to the city that he saw a leak called the city the city had my name, called me said I think its your canal, go check on it. And they were real helpful when I said I do have a leak and need sandbags. So it can work.
31- From what month to what month does the operation season last?
When are the canals generally filled and drained?
What typical O+M tasks are performed during this period?
- Type of equipment used? -Grade all. Skid Loaders, Track Ho (Hydro Unit), Road Graders, and Draglines.
· Generally the water goes in first of may and comes out the first of October. During the operational season there are daily checks. The water master goes and checks grates, head gates, at least once a day if not more. During times of restrictions more. We will go out at night and check compliance make sure people aren’t stealing water out of turn. But generally its by hand. During the flood season which is during May-June when we have peak run off, logan city has been real good about leaving some of their equipment in place by some of the points of diversion in places where we have a problem so that if we do have a problem we can pull out trees and other large trees that need to be pulled out. In the spring before we fill in April is when we generally do most of our maintenance. Most of its by hand, but occasionally we do need to get some heavy equipment in. We contract that out. They will be sometimes as large as Track Ho’s, draglines. Usually it consists of a couple of guys on a four wheeler would have to go through and pick up trash. So, we are only talking about two successive weekends in the spring and then on an on call basis when we do have a problem. Chances are if there is a problem, you are not going to be on that trail anyway. The guy that goes on a daily basis drives by, gets out of his car and walks in to make sure the gauges and measuring devises are unobstructed meaning there are no leaks. We know where the problem spots are. There are always certain areas that always jam, usually behind apartments where people throw their trash. So, on a daily basis there is just a an old guy who just walks along and eyeballs it who might have a hoe with him or a chainsaw.
32- Do your ditch riders perform O+M checks on a daily basis during operation seasons and if so at what times of the day?
- How many ditchriders do you have.
· For the entire ten systems we mutually pay this one guys salary. So he is the only one. And ever other canal usually only has one or two of these guys.
33- What typical complaints do they have concerning ease of O+M?
- What uses have they reported conflicts with during routine maintenance?
· One thing that is misinformation on our part is we tend to go in and do maintenance without warning. They like that shrub cover and so sometimes we will go in and we will decide that a tree is about to fall or its too big or obstructing or we don’t have access. And without saying anything to the property owner we will take that out and that tends to piss people off. In the past we have had the attitude that its our canal we can do whatever we want and I have tried to get common courtesy out again where we inform the people what we are doing and why we are doing it. If they maintain there own property like they should and the state statute says that people adjacent to canals are responsible for maintaining an unobstructed, debris free area even if they don’t have rights to the canal. So if a tree falls across the ditch from their property, technically it is there problem, but we have always gone out and helped them out. I'm trying to get everyone to cooperate, the adjacent property owner, the canal company and Logan city and between the three of us we should be able to resolve most of these problems.
34- Briefly discuss the operation and maintenance tasks you feel would most likely be interfered with due to increased recreation.
· People messing with the headgates, putting debris in the canal. I think people walking by the ditch doesn’t hurt anything. If there was increased traffic to the point where there was an increased sediment load or runoff, that might be a problem. If it was well planned, I would think they would address all those things and put in drainage fences or whatever it would take to keep that from happening. But with increased use we do have malicious vandalism. That’s the one thing I am worried about that because there is more use people would go in there and mess with it more and there would be increased costs. What they could do to the head gate is they are cast metal, they could break them, bend the stem, they could obstruct them. During use a lot of times they are not locked, so people mess with them pulling them up and down. One time the city disconnected the pump down in the park for a while to do some routine maintenance and kids threw debris down the pump and lodged it so that the canal company had to go in and re-bore it out.
35- Do you feel a developed trail would increase, decrease, or have no effect on your ability to maintenance the canal? Why?
· I would think increase our ability because we would have better access. More people watching, more people concerned. I think the more people watching and helping would offset the increased traffic and garbage problems. I do know that dog manure has been a big point of contention, and I physically had farmers tell me they are just tired of it and I don’t blame them because there is dog manure everywhere.
36- Do you feel there are any resolvable solutions to any of your concerns? Explain.
· Yes I think we went through that. Better information and better maps and a willingness of parties to sit down. And rather than asking who is liable but we admit partial responsibility with everyone else and lets work at it together. Co-op, I always tell people I am trying to put the co-op back into the system because no one person ran it before that’s why there are so many systems.
37- Could you summarize what it is you feel are the most important issues involving public recreational use of your canal R.O.W.?
· Again, getting all the players to sit down and admitting responsiblitly. I think that is the first step. Lets sit down and admit it and lets have yearly meeting so we do sit down and talk about it and that is starting to happen, we should have some meeting coming up with logan city this fall to try and plan next years irrigation season.
38- Can these concerns be addressed with creative and proper design, construction and management of the trail.
· Yes you bet. They always can.
39- Do you have any final thoughts, feelings, or general concerns regarding recreational use of canals?
· I think we cover it all somewhere in there.
· One of the problems we have is that Logan doesn’t really have storm drains, so all the water that falls in Logan comes into our ditches. So when we get a storm event at the capacity of a half inch in an hour we get overflow, so we open as many ditches as we can. Years ago we used to blow it all into the fields but its all developed now. So we are talking to the cities and they figure that once it crosses the city lines its someone else’s problem, and to me that is where I would like to see a comprehensive watershed planning unit where the water doesn’t stop when it gets to that line. We are all in this together. The property owner benefits by having it right through their property because they owns right up to the canal, the municipality because they put their storm drain water in there and the canal company because they distribute water in there. So, rather than spending money on lawyers to fight each other we could spend that same amount of money to make improvements in infrastructure to handle that. Identification of these things should be done instead of just spending money without identifying them and then base the plan on reality. So, its backwards the way it is now. I'm all for it (a trail) they have always talked about connecting the parks so that people could bike and walk along it all the way back (to the mountains) and there is a trail to the highschool. But the problem is there is no right-of-way there for the rest of the way and all these people say not in my backyard. And physically we have been encroached upon so much that I don’t think we have any spare right-of-way to use. So that makes it real tough. Property acquisition, buy that right-of-way easement from those people and use the money to put a wall of shrubs in that will keep people from looking right into your yard and we will limit the hours to accommodate those people. So, they are staying with their same program that if I don’t use it I am going to loose it. The other thing would be to go to where you are developing rapidly right now and put it in place right now and lets not go back and deal with these old problems that are very difficult to put in place. Just make it part of your development costs. With Logan city I have actually had problems. They talk the talk but when you actually go ok are you going to put some finances toward this and take a legal responsibility when we go over the ditch. So, I can handle my water, it’s the extra water, the storm water that is putting me over and I think your liable and I am willing to admit that it is a three way deal between the property owner the canal company and the city. So it’s a third of the cost.
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